Intro:
My guest today on Naturally Curious is retired judge and author Martin Clark. He was appointed to the bench at the age of 32 and served for almost 30 years. I'm Bruce C. Bryan and I'm excited to be spending time with a writer's writer. Martin Clark has won a list of awards and he knows how to write a legal mystery.
He's also very good at titling his books with releases like The Plinko Bounce, plain Heathen Mischief, the Jezebel Remedy, and more. Judge Clark knows his way around a courtroom and I can't help but wonder if he's thinking about characters in his next book, while he sits here for this interview. I'm excited to hear more about his winding career path, how he builds his characters and stories, and what happens behind the scenes in the courtroom and what Martin will be up to next. This says all the makings of a fabulous show and I can't wait to get started! My one-on-one sit down with Judge Martin Clark, the Thinking Man's John Grisham, is coming up next on today's episode of Naturally Curious.
Clark Segment 1:
Bruce C. Bryan: Thank you for being my guest, Martin Clark, and welcome to the show.
Martin Clark: Well,thanks for the invite and I am looking forward to being here. Let me, uh, begin with an apology to you. Um, I sound like Tom Waits after a three day bender. But... iit's all it's the allergens.
Bruce C. Bryan: It's the allergens.
Martin Clark: Right. A, a gift of later life for me. Never a problem before. But today I'm, hoarse. And, um, and the great part about that is, is that you wake up about every three hours every night.
Bruce C. Bryan: Well, but the other good part is now you have an FM radio voice and we're on FM radio, so it's kind of, it's perfect.
This is good work for you. Nice third career. So first of all, I'm dying to ask this. What does John Grisham think of that description of you?
Martin Clark: John and I know each other, and, uh, we've never, he's never mentioned it. We've seen each other, we've worked together. And I'm a bigfan.
I'm a big John Grisham fan. It's interesting, I think that people tend to underestimate what he does. I, I would argue with you that a time to kill. It may not be an A American classic, but it's certainly an A minus. It is a wonderful book, um, with great plot arcs, beautiful writing and incredible momentum and what a payoff, right?
Everyone suggests the guy does a book a year. And people say, oh, I could do that. And the answer is no. You could not. Try to do that. Try to write a book a year. That's that good.
Bruce C. Bryan: It's so also interesting 'cause Martin, I I want to ask you about the cadence of your books as we get to it later on, but, and I'm really excited to, to hear how you got to where you are professionally and kind of hear firsthand your story.
First, tell us where you're based now. A little bit about what you're currently working on.
Martin Clark: I live in Patrick County. I'm retired. I was a judge. That was my day job. I retired in 2019. because I was, after a lot of frustration, a lot of closed doors, I finally became a writer and we could live on that money.
So I retired, um, at 58 I think.
Bruce C. Bryan: Okay.
Martin Clark: Uh, and now I, I live in Patrick County with my wife Dina. Uh, as I like to say, wherever we are, always the hottest girl in the joint
Bruce C. Bryan: Well played. And also, you have some hobbies there too. 'cause I think I read that you have some animals.
Martin Clark: Oh yeah, we have, we have donkeys.
Uh, today I'm, I'm managing the spring chicks.
Bruce C. Bryan: Okay.
Martin Clark: And we have two dogs.
Martin Clark: and cats,
Bruce C. Bryan: Well, so you and you might be surprised to know you're not my. First guest that's had donkeys. Oh, you're actually my second donkey guest in the first 10 shows. How about that?
Martin Clark: Yeah. Who, who else?
Bruce C. Bryan: Ashley Arney from Healing Strides of Virginia had two donkeys.
So we've got, you've got that in common with one of the other guests here. Um, and it sounds also like, I don't, I don't want to, um. Make it sound too capitalistic, but you've got some big news happening in the next couple weeks, right? You wanna share a little bit about that?
Martin Clark: I'll, I Nothing like self-promotion.
Plinko balance is being rereleased. I am going home to back to Vintage and Koff. My first, um, five books were published there. Uh, this book was not, and it is a. Remarkable. Happy serendipitous time. So April, excuse me, may five. May five. The, um, the Plinko balance will be rereleased. And, and that's kind of a odd phenomenon.
I mean, the book has been out. It had a great run. Um, and you know, you always feel like. You are just pestering people. You're oversaturated things. Read my book, and, you know, and, and you're just wearing out the markets. But, uh, the folks at, um, at vintage and, and Random House said essentially we like the book and we think there's an audience.
There are, there are millions of people who've never heard of the book or heard of you. So, uh, I'm really excited about that.
Bruce C. Bryan: We're gonna talk some more about the p planco bounce soon during this interview. And I, and, uh, and some of the other books that you've written as well, and I'm looking forward to that.
Talk for a second. By the way, I'm Bruce Bryan, your host for Naturally Curious here and with me in the studio is Martin Clark. He's an author and a retired judge. I think in the intro I said a retired judge and author, and they may sound like you're a retired author. You're just a retired judge. You're a full on author still, so let's make sure we get that straight.
Martin Clark: I'm getting near the end of end of that un too, the writing run.
Bruce C. Bryan: Right. Talk for a minute about home. You've been there, I know for years. Is that where you're from? Do people know you by your nickname from when you were a kid there or, or even call you by your first name? Or do people just still call you Judge?
Martin Clark: Um, I live in Patrick County and I was born there and raised there. I was, uh, exiled from Patrick County as a young man and went to Woodbury Forest School, not because I was a good student, not because I was exceptional, not because I was, um, doing well. But because I was a discipline problem, I finished at Woodbury, went to Davidson College, then UVA, then moved back to Patrick County.
Um, and, and I prefer to be called Martin, uh, unless I'm working. Gotcha. And it's really interesting. I can recall probably a couple of times a year I would see someone from high school and a number of folks who make their way into circuit court. Especially on pretrial day have substance abuse problems.
And they would show up maybe a little impaired and, and I can remember great big smiles and people saying, Hey Martin, I wondered what happened to you.
Bruce C. Bryan: Right.
Martin Clark: Uh, so that's, and I would always say, you have to call me Judge Clark here, but everywhere else, I'm happy to be known as Martin. And I never had a nickname by the way.
Bruce C. Bryan: So
Martin Clark: you so not to my, well,
Bruce C. Bryan: not to your face.
Martin Clark: Not to my face. My nickname is an adult is Toonces. Okay. Do you remember Toonces the driving cat?
Bruce C. Bryan: I don't, but Big Jim does.
Martin Clark: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We got, we got it, we got it. We got it.
Bruce C. Bryan: Okay. So Toonces Martin and Judge.
Martin Clark: That's it. Yeah.
Bruce C. Bryan: Did I, I used to play basketball with Judge Broadhurst.
Martin Clark: Oh really?
Bruce C. Bryan: And he's a great guy, but we, he is, we everybody just called him Judge. And, and so it was always fascinating. So I didn't know back home what they called you by and, and so I love hearing that. I'm also curious, do people call or email you questions about the law?Or to get your opinion on cases they're working on and stuff.
Does that happen still?
Martin Clark: Oh yeah, and, and the other thing that happens is I get this interesting mix. It's a strange amalgam. People will call me with a legal question and then offer to give to me their legal story, if I will write the book and we'll split the money.
Bruce C. Bryan: Gotcha.
Martin Clark: Yeah. That, that's usually that, that's that
Bruce C. Bryan: they, they have a story, they're sure is gonna be a hit
Martin Clark: and they need some legal advice.
And, and the way we can work this to everybody's advantage is I'll write the book, but I, this, this emailer is going to give me the substance.
Bruce C. Bryan: Gotcha. Well I was curious, do people ask you questions about the books they wanna write? Kinda like people ask you legal questions, you get some of that too?
Martin Clark: Well, they do, but that's sort of different for me.
Um. I don't know how much you know about my background, but I spent 20 years getting rejection letters.
Bruce C. Bryan: Okay.
Martin Clark: And so many people helped me along the way, so I try to repay that. I think that's good karma. I think that's the thing I should do. Uh, and I always tell people. I cannot only help you so much, I can't publish your book, and, and I won't read it because one, I'm afraid someone will suggest that I've lifted something,
Bruce C. Bryan: right?
Martin Clark: And, and two, because it won't do any good if I like it, it doesn't matter. But what I will do is tell you how the business works and connect you with my agent, and that will open a door for you. Um. Because people were really kind to me as I struggled for two decades getting a rejection letter after rejection letter.
Bruce C. Bryan: I think we might have that in common as well. I was, uh, on the streets after career broadcasting twice around the economic slowdown, and people helped me when I was looking. So oftentimes I will meet with other people to try to help them returning the favor. Yes. But you've got a two-edged sword there because you've got legal people calling you and you have writers calling you and everybody's calling you for something hurting.
Martin Clark: I have no problem telling the legal folks. No. And, and you know, the other thing is, honestly, when I was a judge, ethically, we can't give you legal advice. We cannot do that. Right. And, and now that I'm six years, I guess, no, no seven years removed from the bench, I'm not sure my advice would be very good.
Bruce C. Bryan: It's gotta be interesting.
Martin Clark: It would be dated at least
Bruce C. Bryan: possibly, but it's gotta be interesting for you. Um, Martin Clark, uh, retired judge and author, looking at legal cases and wondering what the judges are thinking or wondering what the attorneys are thinking or paying attention to the strategies. You probably watch those legal movies and legal dramas a little differently than the average consumer like I might right.
Martin Clark: Yeah. What was the, uh, Billy Bob Thornton, um, recently, I can't think of the name of that series. It was a great series, and he was a lawyer, sort of down in his luck drinking problem, right. All the baggage and, and, and, and. And, and suffering that comes with, with that. A lot of angst and the law in that series.
It was a great show and we loved it, but the law was just fanciful. It was crazy. My wife who's layperson said, you can't do that. This just seems intuitively wrong. I said, well, of course you can't do that.
Bruce C. Bryan: It was made up for Billy Bob. It was made up. Yeah. Which is what he gets to do. So that's kind of funny.
Well, um, I, I do wanna start with plain heathen mischief, but there was a book before that, um, and the. There was one that you released in oh one. I think it was
Martin Clark: 2000.
Bruce C. Bryan: Many aspects
Martin Clark: of Mobile Home Living.
Bruce C. Bryan: Love that one. The Many Aspects of Mobile Home living, and I think that might've been the first one, Dolores, from Book No Further, that was recommended to me.
Um. You were still a sitting judge when you released those first three or four books. Yeah. Yeah. That had to have been fascinating. And there's a current judge up in, I think he's in Charlottesville, um, maybe wrote a, a Thomas Cullen, that's a writer also.
Martin Clark: I, I, he's a good writer. He, we don't know each other.
Bruce C. Bryan: Mm-hmm.
Martin Clark: And, um, I, he, his agent sent me his book for a blurb and I blurbed it. It is a good, good book.
Bruce C. Bryan: That's great.
Martin Clark: He's a good writer. He's, he's, and, and, and a lot of folks suggested, you know, it's just one judge helping. I, I, I wouldn't know him if he walked in here, but he can flat out write.
Bruce C. Bryan: Okay. Good to know.
That's a good endorsement. So, yeah, judge, talk, talk about what it was like to be a sitting judge and have these books coming out.
Martin Clark: Well, there, there were a lot of things. It was, you know, many aspects was, I'm trying to, I'm terrible at summations, but many aspects was about a, um, dissolute pot smoking judge in a, uh, small town.
You gotta understand this was. You know, 26 years ago
Bruce C. Bryan: when it was frowned upon even a little bit more.
Martin Clark: Yes. Yeah.
Bruce C. Bryan: Evan, right? Wasn't that his, the character's
Martin Clark: name? Yeah. Evers Wheeling,
Bruce C. Bryan: Evers.
Martin Clark: Yeah. And uh, so there was some consternation and some concerns, and I remember, I don't know if you knew Jerry Blouse or not, but he's in Patrick County.
Mm-hmm. He was governor of, I've forgotten when Jerry was governor, but he was very. Um, buttoned up, but you know, you're, you, it's your first book and you're trying to get endorsements, and I said, okay. I, I know Jerry. And he called me on the phone. He says, are you sure you wanna do this? Uh, you might get fired.
And he wrote this blurb that was one of the funniest, most guarded, uh, it had like 10 qualifiers in it, even though I don't approve of the language, the conduct. And it just went on and on. This is still a pretty good book.
Bruce C. Bryan: You might wanna read this thing.
Martin Clark: Yeah, that's great. And we, we, we didn't use it and I was grateful to him for doing that.
Um, and, and the best story that came out of that. Was Justice Carrico, chief Justice of the Supreme Court was a great chief justice, and I was a, I was a new, a very new judge and Justice Carrico was proud that one of his children had done well. And, and he'd read the reviews and he'd, he'd, he'd seen the New York Times, he'd seen the Richmond Times Dispatch and he said he told Justice Lemons, I'm gonna take this book home and read it.
And, and lemons says, uh, you probably don't wanna do that. It's, it's probably not for you, not your cup of tea y No, probably not. He couldn't talk him out. It couldn't dissuade him. Justice Carrico, takes it home. He's, he gets Justice Lemons who told me the story, he. In his office the next morning, he says, I don't know what it takes or what it's going to take, but I'm going to bring Martin Clark to Richmond and fire him.
Bruce C. Bryan: Oh, no.
Martin Clark: And, and, and Justice Lemons literally talked him down. You don't wanna do that. It'll just give it more publicity. It's probably a one-off. And, um. Later in life, thanks to David Baldacci, who was very close to Justice Carrico,. Justice Carrico, and I became good friends. Um, he used to invite me for breakfast at the judicial conferences, and, uh, after that Rocky start, we became big buddies.
Yeah. Yeah.
Bruce C. Bryan: Well, there's, uh, so much I want to talk about. And there were, uh, uh, there was a big gap between books number two. And number three and we come back and I wanna talk more about that and what else is going on with you that and so much more when naturally curious returns.
Clark Segment 2:
Bruce C. Bryan: Welcome back to Naturally Curious. I'm Bruce Bryan, segment two with our guest today is Martin Clark, and we are excited to get back and talking about your books and the things that you've been doing.
So I know that 2008 was your third book and then there was a, a big Gap, um, before 2015. Uh, talk about that time professionally and as a writer.
Martin Clark: Um. There. I think there was just a lot going on. Um, I was just a little overwhelmed.
Both my parents were infirm.
Bruce C. Bryan: Um, so you a lot you were taking care of?
Martin Clark: Yeah. Yeah. Obviously work was, work always had to be foremost. And a lot of that I thought kept bleeding into my writing. Um. What I do is I, I want people to be entertained. I want people to have a good time. I want them to, at the end of the book, maybe have their perspective just nudged a little bit, but to feel they've gotten a payoff.
Bruce C. Bryan: And if you're going through challenges Yeah. And crisis, it's hard to not bring people down a little bit because you're, yes, you're struggling
Martin Clark: some. And despite my best efforts, it kept translating to what I was writing.
Bruce C. Bryan: That makes perfect
Martin Clark: sense. And my, um, and my editor, Gary Fiskajohn, um, said, you know, this is not your voice, and the book is way too long.
So, um, we, we worked on it and, um, and got it. Right.
Bruce C. Bryan: So then after that, it's almost like the Olympics 15, 19, 23. What was that decade like as a writer for you?
Martin Clark: Uh, it was, it was really, it was really productive. Um. Substitution order was about, 80 to a hundred pages into that book and I had a stroke.
Bruce C. Bryan: Oh, wow.
Martin Clark: Yeah. And, and, and that shows up in the book. It was interesting. You know, what is the, what's the great line? Write what you know. That's a. That's a hard way to learn what you, you,
Bruce C. Bryan:that's a subject you wish you hadn't had the write about
Martin Clark: . That's right. Because I had started interviewing one of my friends who's a doc about a heart attack.
How does this affect you? So I went back and, um, boy, that'll change your perspective a lot. Make you much more empathetic. Make you, uh, really in my case, the, the, the underdog in, in the book became. Um, somebody, I was, I was really sympathetic toward this character because of what was happening. 'cause of what would happen to me
Bruce C. Bryan: in your life.
Martin Clark: And, and, and I, I had a, um, a, a full complete recovery. Some folks would say it wasn't a very high bar to get back to, to my level of function anyway. Um, and so that book was, was really interesting and it was just a celebration to finish it. And it did well. So, so that was, that was great.
Bruce C. Bryan: So it's been in four years, it'll be 2027.
And I know you've got a book you're re-releasing in 2026.
Martin Clark: Right.
Bruce C. Bryan: But is there anything in the works for
Martin Clark: next year? Yeah, the, the, the new book, which will be, you know, Hey, I don't wanna be. You know Cher or Elton John? Orly. Lynard Skynyrd. It's the final tour. It's the final platinum tour. It's the last one. Uh, it's the really final Vegas show.
Bruce C. Bryan: The final. Final.
Martin Clark:but I'm pretty sure that the book that I'm working on now, which is at about 130 pages, it's called Backroom Saviors. I'm pretty sure that will be my last one 'cause it'll hit when I'm about 70. And I have been a very slow pin. Uh, I will not hit that four year mark.
And that's because I'm really enjoying it. It's, if it's the last time you're gonna do it and you've done it, have fun doing it, right? Yeah. If you've done it for years. So, yeah. Um, so it'll probably a couple years on that.
Bruce C. Bryan: But there is, the good news for fans of yours is there's another one in the works and if they aren't familiar with the Plinko Bounce that's coming out soon.
Um, so I guess I wanna hear a little bit more about your characters, Martin, when you write. Do you go storyfirst or characters first?
Martin Clark: I'm a, I'm a story guy. Uh, and, and I will, before I start, I have the. The plot is in my head from Alpha to Omega. Um, my favorite writer is Larry Brown, and not a lot of folks know Larry, um, and not Larry Brown, the basketball coach, not Larry.
Bruce C. Bryan: I'm a Pistons fan, so I know that one. But I, I'm gonna, I'm writing down Larry Brown
Martin Clark: and, and not Larry Brown, the, the former pro football player, Larry Brown, the Oxford, um, Mississippi Fireman, and Larry, um, in fact, a a, uh, Steven Ussery who does a, a. Uh, a book show in, in, is it Memphis at any rate? Um, he was, Larry did one of his Larry's deceased.
He, he pretty much drank himself to death. And, um, he did an interview there and, and Stephen knows that I, um, that I was a big Larry Brown fan. He sent it to me. It was so long ago it was on a disc, and he asked Larry, what comes first for you? Characters or story, and Larry said, characters, I create interesting people.
I load them up with problems. Then it's very organic and I see what will happen. I'm, I'm, I'm not that flexible and gifted, so I have my plot down. You have a
Bruce C. Bryan: You have a structure?
Martin Clark: Yeah, I have, I have my plot in my head, 80 to 90% intact. Then, then I go back in and, and, and add the characters to support the plot.
Bruce C. Bryan: So I'm just curious, um, do your characters surprise you when you're writing and, and if they do, in what ways?
Martin Clark: No, not really. Since I know where the, I know where they're gonna end up. When, when this starts, you know, on page one, I know exactly what's going to happen. Um,
Bruce C. Bryan: because I've heard different writers kinda approach that differently. I know.
Martin Clark: Yeah.
Bruce C. Bryan: Well, well then, um, I'm wondering if you can share. A little bit more about some of your favorites without ruining the plots of the books.
So I mean, if people that have kids, you're not supposed to have favorites, but everybody has favorites. Do you have any favorites, um, that, that, you know, without ruining the book that you'd love to point out?
Martin Clark: Um, I really like, and maybe it's just because it's the most recent book, you know, uh, the, the, the character Andy in, in, in Plinko Bounce.
And, and I think that's because. And, and some people, I guess if you, you, I'm someone I read every review I get. I read Goodreads, I read every magazine, every newspaper,
Bruce C. Bryan: even the bad ones.
Martin Clark: I read 'em all, every single one. And a lot of people found him. Too sanctimonious, too good. I'm not sure. Can you be too good?
Um, and maybe that does make you somehow sanctimonious, but I really liked him. I liked him because he was an underdog. I liked him because he, he did the right thing or arguably. And um, and I liked him 'cause he's a public defender and, and, um, I was a defense lawyer and, and I have just. The biggest spot in my heart for PDs.
Bruce C. Bryan: Well, you're listening to Naturally Curious. That's Martin Clark, the author and the retired judge. I'm Bruce Bryan, your host, and there's so many things I want to ask you and we're kind of getting towards the end of the interview. But I, I was curious a little bit more about your observation of people. Um, is there somewhere or from some people that your characters come?
Martin Clark: I do two thi my books have real people.
Bruce C. Bryan: Okay. Uh,
Martin Clark: yeah, there.
Bruce C. Bryan: So big Jim and I have a shot at getting in one of these. It's not too late.
Martin Clark: Well, you Yeah, it is. Definitely not, it's not too late. I'm at, I'm at one 30 and I've probably got another couple pages. Hundred. Yeah.
Bruce C. Bryan: There you go.
Martin Clark: And it's interesting when, when, when I talk to people, they'll, they'll say, well, how do, how does somebody, how do you know?
I say, because I use their names.
Bruce C. Bryan: Oh, you actually use people's names,
Martin Clark: right? Yeah.
Bruce C. Bryan: Okay.
Martin Clark: Yeah. And, and, and they're from this part of the world. And the reason I do that is, so there'll be a continuity if you're a reader from this region and you're in Patrick County or you're in Henry County or somewhere and you're reading and it's, and it refers to the sheriff and it says, you know, sheriff Brian, then.
Everybody that's gonna jar you outta the narrative and take the, take you away from the story because you're gonna say the sheriff's is Dan Smith,
Bruce C. Bryan: right?
Martin Clark: If, if you talk about, you know, the judge, uh, and you get the name wrong, everybody, everybody's gonna say, well, that's not the judge. And I think that will bump you out of the, the, the, the, the story's realism.
And if you live in Wisconsin or
Bruce C. Bryan: you won't know those
Martin Clark: people anyway, it's just name.
Bruce C. Bryan: Yeah,
Martin Clark: so I have, I have actual real people always treated well. I would never be rude to someone in print.
Bruce C. Bryan: That was a real person, actually. Um, my favorite bookseller mentioned to me that somebody that she knew said, whenever Martin puts me in his book, I lose my case.
When do I ever get to win a case?
Martin Clark: Um,
Bruce C. Bryan: so that could be true. Question for you. Are you your harshest critic, Martin?
Martin Clark: No.
Bruce C. Bryan: Okay.
Martin Clark: No, no. I'm, I'm
Bruce C. Bryan: So you let some things slide that other people might give you a hard time about.
Martin Clark: I'm, I'm very careful with what I write. I, I try to be very circumspect. I try to write good books.
I, I, I overwrite and I, and I understand that, but, but I. We just live in a world where folks have so many outlets, there's so many message boards, so many opportunities to be critical, and, and people are critical about things. They're not reviews. They're me views.
Bruce C. Bryan: Yeah. And it's,
Martin Clark: it's, it has, they're, they're so peripheral to what I'm doing.
And, and you project onto this book your worldview and, and blame me because we don't mesh.
Bruce C. Bryan: I think people are braver when it's behind a computer screen for obvious reasons. Do you have a good critic, one that you pay attention to though, that helps you in that process, in your writing process?
Martin Clark: My wife's a big reader and got a great eye.
Bruce C. Bryan: That helps a lot.
Martin Clark: Yeah, it does.
Bruce C. Bryan: Uh, question for you, as we start to wrap up, is there something you've wanted to accomplish as a writer that you haven't yet achieved? Or have you checked all the boxes?
Martin Clark: Uh, you know, I, I'm the guy who basically. You know, begged the heavens for two 20 years to get published.
And I, I've said more than once, all I ever wanted out of this whole gig was to be able to walk into a, a bookstore, see my book on the shelf, and, and take it down. And that's what I wanted. So I,
Bruce C. Bryan: well, it happened in Roanoke, Virginia many times.
Martin Clark: Yeah.
Bruce C. Bryan: So I really appreciate, I really appreciate you being my guest, and I think if you're listening to the show this far, and you're gonna wanna stick around for the bonus coverage.
On the podcast, judge Martin Clark, thank you for being my guest on Naturally Curious this week to listen back to the show and to hear the full interview and links. To learn more about him and his books, search Naturally curious@radioiq.org. Naturally Curious was produced and edited by Big Jim Shivey and recorded [00:11:00] at W VTF Radio IQ Studios.
I'm Bruce Bryan. Thank you for listening.
Clark Bonus Content:
Bruce C. Bryan: Welcome back to the bonus Coverage, if you will, of naturally curious with author Martin Clark. Martin, again, thanks for sticking around and answering a few more questions.
Martin Clark: Thank you. I'm having a good time.
Bruce C. Bryan: Likewise. So I'm curious, was it harder if you could rank these? Was it harder to write the book? Get the book edited, publish the book or market that first book.
Martin Clark: Oh, publish the book. Um, and not only did I get rejection letter after rejection letter, and by the way, I travel with my rejection letters. I promised myself that if I ever got published, um, that I would keep them with me. And frequently, almost always, I read them at my. My events, uh, 'cause they're, they're, they're classic.
Uh, so, um,
Bruce C. Bryan: that is brutal, but also really interesting.
Martin Clark: So, yeah. Yeah. Um, so getting published was difficult and I had, um, Tom Wolf, who's my writing mentor and Mr. Wolf was, was, you know, sort of toting my manuscript all over New York, and I'm still getting, Tom Wolf is taking it into some of the biggest publishers in the country and they're saying.
No,
Bruce C. Bryan: not today.
Martin Clark: Not today. Not ever.
Bruce C. Bryan: Never, ever?
Martin Clark: And um, so getting it published was, was difficult and it's, it's a, it's an interesting progression. And you know this probably as well having published, so you want to get published, it's what's the Bruce Springsteen song? Uh, poor man wanna be rich. Rich man.
Wanna be king. King ain't satisfied till he rules everything. So you wanna get published and, and, and, but then you want more, you want great publicity. You, you want big sales, then you want movies and, and the next thing, audience the thing. Yeah.
Bruce C. Bryan: So, so publishing it was the hardest?
Martin Clark: Yes.
Bruce C. Bryan: Was marketing it the next hardest or was editing it the next hardest or was writing it the next hardest?
Martin Clark: Probably writing it was the next Hardy was, was, was hard. Um, but I had the best publicist in the b Gabrielle Brooks was my publicist for, from my first book to, and, and she'll be back on this one,
Bruce C. Bryan: on the
re-release
Martin Clark: of the Plinko Bounce. Oh, she, I mean, my goodness. She, so that, that was just a dream. Um, yeah.
Bruce C. Bryan: Well, when I read these books, sometimes they feel to me like a movie or even a binge worthy TV show. I'm just wondering,
Martin Clark: all my books have been optioned
Bruce C. Bryan: Okay.
Martin Clark: Uh, at one time or another. And, and you soon learn the excitement of that option. I think the numbers are, . One, one out of 50 is made. Um, and I will say this, that if you were to sign a shopping agreement or a movie option, you're not allowed to mention it.
You can't, you can't say anything about it.
Bruce C. Bryan: So we don't wanna break any rules or get you in trouble, but, you know, we are up for an, an occasional scoop if there's anything you wanna share, which you probably can't, right, your Honor.
Martin Clark: Yeah. So, um,
he's
Bruce C. Bryan: gonna say no. I just, I had to ask,
Martin Clark: I asked, I asked my agent about, I asked my agent about that.
I said, why is that? And they said, because if you're a major Hollywood star, you do not want Martin Clark pimping your name and brand. Hey. You know, so and so signed up to, to is, is, is attached to, to, to, to my book and also if it falls apart, no, no one in Hollywood wants to be associated, associated with, with
Bruce C. Bryan: that.
Right.
Martin Clark: But I will say this, I am very optimistic at, more optimistic than I've ever been about p Planco Bounce.
Bruce C. Bryan: Okay.
Martin Clark: And, and I will say that we have a genuine big time star. We have a genuine big time director. We have a genuine, um, incredible screenwriter, and we have a studio.
Bruce C. Bryan: Well,
so
Martin Clark: that's close.
Bruce C. Bryan: That was my next question was which one's the most logical, but let me just ask it a different way.
Have you figured out who's gonna play the aspiring podcast host that interviews the famous author? Yeah. And, and writing his penultimate book. Is it like, who's gonna Be Me? No, I'm just kidding. You don't
Martin Clark: have to answer that. I see Big Jim being. You know, sort of, sort of Brad, the Brad pit, the
Bruce C. Bryan: character, the brad pit of the shape.
Yeah, I could see that. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I can, I can totally see that. Uh, Martin, I'm curious, where do you like to write? Where do you actually like that same
Martin Clark:same place every day in my office, looking out the window at the pond.
Bruce C. Bryan: Are the donkeys there?
Martin Clark: I can see them. I have to go in another room. But yeah, there.
Bruce C. Bryan: Couple quick questions. Do you need silence or do you prefer music or things Silence happening.
Martin Clark: Silence. Silence.
Bruce C. Bryan: So you're a silence person. So we talked about your relationship with your characters earlier. Do they sometimes make you sad or make you laugh? And do you actually, let's not talk about the stroke character, but do you actually hurt when they're hurting?
Martin?
Martin Clark: I don't hurt when they're hurting, but occasionally I, you, I write, I will write and then I let it get cold and then I go back and read it. And occasionally I will laugh if, if something is, is funny that I've written and, and maybe I, I probably, you know, wrote it. Two months ago, and it, and I've forgotten and I'll go back and a character will say something, I will laugh.
Bruce C. Bryan: So you, you said earlier that you know the alpha and the omega of your stories. Do you sometimes start writing and, and meander down paths on your way to getting there, or are you pretty much a straightforward writer?
Martin Clark: I have a book of riffs, just observations, and I will work those in as I go and, and, but I don't have too many rabbit holes.
Bruce C. Bryan: So do you require a lot of research to complete the various books? Are some more research heavy than others?
Martin Clark: Yes. Yeah. Right now I'm, I'm learning about terminal lucidity.
Bruce C. Bryan: Okay.
Martin Clark: Terminal lucidity is,
Bruce C. Bryan: I'm gonna admit. I'm gonna ask you to pause for a second, judge, and I'm just gonna admit I did not have that on my Bingo card for today's interview.
Okay. So go ahead and tell us about terminal ity.
Martin Clark: It's a phenomenonof, of, of a medical recovery before you die. It is a real thing. People have a burst of energy and focus and clarity. So much so that that family will often think. Uh, oh my goodness. Why are we in hospice? You know, my, my, my husband is recovering, grandpa's getting better.
It is a real phenomenon, and so I'm talking to physicians about that, studying it, and that's in my new book.
Bruce C. Bryan: Okay. So we talked about this a little bit earlier in regards to some of your characters, but when pressed, a parent will sometimes say they have a favorite child. Do you have a favorite book that you've written of all the books you've written so far?
Martin Clark: I love Substitution oOrder.
Bruce C. Bryan: Okay.
Martin Clark: I do. Maybe it's because of the circumstances.
Bruce C. Bryan: I'm gonna make that my next one. Yeah, because I think that's one of the ones I've, I've missed. So now that I've got that endorsement, um, and I love hearing about what you're writing, um, I'm curious, are, are lawyers as irritating as it appears they can be on TV and in the movies?
Martin Clark: No, I had a good bar. Okay. I had really good people I worked with a lot. I, I don't know about other juris there. In any profession, you're gonna have folks who are sort of vexatious and, and difficult, a handful, difficult to deal with, but on balance, I love my bar. I love my lawyers. They're good folks and, and good at their jobs.
Bruce C. Bryan: I'm gonna say final question, but there might be one more that sneaks out. If someone's made it this far into the interview and they've not previously read. One of your books, in what order do you think they should read them? You know, if they're just, if they're like, this guy's interesting. I really like what he has to say.
Martin Clark: Substitution order, uh, Plinko Bounce, Legal Limit. Um, and make sure you read Many Aspects of Mobile Home Living last. People either love it or they hate it. Okay. And, and, and, and, and that, it's just that one.
Bruce C. Bryan: I think I read that one first.
Martin Clark: Yeah. Well now, so I'm glad you're still along for the ride.
Bruce C. Bryan: I am. So I'm gonna, I'll read the two that you mentioned, or two of your three favorites are the ones I don't think I've gotten to, so I'll put those on my list.
Martin Clark: Thank you.
Bruce C. Bryan: I'm just curious if there's a couple links, if there's anything else that you wanted to share or anything else you thought, oh man, I, I thought he was gonna ask me about this and I was ready to answer it.
Martin Clark: No, I'm, I'm good to go and I enjoyed our chat.
Bruce C. Bryan: Likewise. How would people find you? I guess they could just w wiki your name or Google your name.
You
Martin Clark: could do that. And, and, um, and, and I have a website.
Bruce C. Bryan: And it is, it's
Martin Clark: martinclark.com. That's, that would be tricky. And I have a Facebook, I'm so analog. I have a Facebook page. I don't have Twitter, I don't have X, but I have a Facebook page and I actually read it. I know how to do things, but most of the time other folks manage it.
But yeah, I, I go on there and look and, and you
Bruce C. Bryan: read every review. So somebody buys a book and they put a review. I
Martin Clark: do. I read.
Bruce C. Bryan: You're gonna look at it. Good for you. And
Martin Clark: you'll learn some stuff that way.
Bruce C. Bryan: I'm gonna work on writing a couple reviews. That'll be my own personal homework assignment. Martin Clark, thank you for being my guest on Naturally Curious.
I really, really enjoyed our time together today.
Martin Clark: Thanks much.